hi michael,

interesting pics from kasakhstan. in my view it's difficult if not impossible to assign feldegg types to geographic locations (melanogrisea as the eastern form...) since variation within western and central range of ssp. feldegg is huge and all kind of types occure wherever one looks. check this thread with many photos from romania (including all kinds of intergrades with flava): http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=138719 and note especially these photos of romanian birds: http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=194222&d=1241074986 , http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=195875&d=1241947158 , http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/data/527/P4172682m.jpg

kindest regards,

lou bertalan

Hi Lou,

Thanks for your interest.

Yes I agree - there is uncertainity, but I have more pictures of feldegg from different parts of southern Kazakhstan (its more common there than here in Kyrgyzstan). In my Kazakhstan pictures I have no individuals showing 'melaogrisea' characters. In the Kyrgyz birds however I see the white on side of throat clearly - in kazakh birds I havent seen it!

I dont think its impossible to find 'melanogrisea' forms in Romania? Is the form of feldegg on your links rare/common in Romania?

Best greetings

Michael

feldegg is the common breeding ssp. in romania, while only about 20% are really "pure" looking feldegg, the rest being intergrades of various morphs ("dombrowski", "supercilliaris", xanthophrys" and everything in between).
your argument that the kyrgyz birds all look like "mealogrisea" while the ones in kasakhstan are typical feldegg however convinced me. 2cy males of pure feldegg however do have (or can have) a more or less wide white chin strap/moustache - so how to separate those from adult melanogrisea ? ;) ... yellow wags in northern balkans seem to be in a high evolutionary dynamic (feldegg invaded flava from south to north in the last 3-4 decades and caused the various intergrades). it would be interesting to see if the eastern feldegg are much more stabile? i'm thinking about hybridization with e.g. beema.

best whishes

lou

Thanks Lou,

Yes for sure yellow wagtails (in general) are highly evolutionary dynamic making the yellow-wagtail ssp very complex, with fancy pedigree groupings. I dont have Krister Mild and Per Alströms "Wagtails & Pipits" here, but I remember reading about this 'melanogrisea' (Turkestan Black-headed Wagtail)which is considered as a "form" and not ssp by the authors. One of the problems with 'melanogrisea' is exactly as your links shows - there is occurnece of 'melanogrisea'-birds in Balkan, and this should speak against a ssp 'melanogrisea' - but maybe... these melanogrisea-looking indiviuals are isolated/rare in Balkan?

However some have other oppinions and consider ømelanogrisea' as a ssp. I also remember the debate about whether 'melanogrisea' is considered being hybridization with northern (500-600 km north from here) distributed "beema."

I didnt knew that 2cy males of feldegg have (or can have) a more or less white chin strap, and I havent seen it on any feldegg in southern Kazakhstan.

Best greetings

Michael